PowerPlant Discontinued

[j***@mac.com]

Listed on Metrowerks' Discontinued Products web page
http://www.metrowerks.com/Discontinued/default.htm (in addition to the
Windows compiler) is:

PowerPlant Framework for Mac

Do I assume that this is the Classic version and does not include
PowerPlant X?

Jonathan Hoyle

[Isaac Wankerl]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[MW Ron]

Post by j***@mac.com
Listed on Metrowerks' Discontinued Products web page
http://www.metrowerks.com/Discontinued/default.htm (in addition to the
PowerPlant Framework for Mac
Do I assume that this is the Classic version and does not include
PowerPlant X?

PowerPlantXP the cross platform version was discontinued

PowerParts for Windows which was never sold as a stand alone product was
discontinued.

PowerPlant has been discontinued.

Ron

[MW Ron]

Post by MW Ron
PowerPlant has been discontinued.

ARRGGGHHH

PowerPlant has NOT been discontinued


I knew as soon as I hit Send that I'd left out that word.

My apology to anyone that I confused.

Ron

[j***@mac.com]

Hi Ron,

That clears it up nicely. Thanks again!

Jonathan

[Alex Curylo]

Post by MW Ron
PowerPlantXP the cross platform version was discontinued

Well, in that case, how about releasing the source to it as an unsupported
download? Plenty of folks I'm sure would find that useful for projects that
aren't worth the investment for the commercial version, me for starters!

[j***@mac.com]

Post by Alex Curylo

Post by MW Ron
PowerPlantXP the cross platform version was discontinued

Well, in that case, how about releasing the source to it as an

unsupported

Post by Alex Curylo
download? Plenty of folks I'm sure would find that useful for

projects that

Post by Alex Curylo
aren't worth the investment for the commercial version, me for

starters!

Because they did not write PowerPlant for Windows: they licensed the
porting library Mac2Win from Altura and compiled it that way. Mac2Win
is an older porting technology that essentially implemented the Mac API
(Classic and some parts of Carbon) in Windows. Unfortunately, the
latest version of PowerPlant that Altura supported in their downloads
was the Classic version, not the Carbon version. Presumably,
Metrowerks used a lot of #ifdef's or separate brnaches or something to
get around this problem; but it seems a moot point now.

As Metrowerks was one of the largest customers Altura had left, I doubt
that Mac2Win will have much further viability once CodeWarrior 10 is
released.

Jonathan Hoyle

[b***@hotmail.com]

Post by j***@mac.com
Because they did not write PowerPlant for Windows: they licensed the
porting library Mac2Win from Altura and compiled it that way. Mac2Win
is an older porting technology that essentially implemented the Mac API
(Classic and some parts of Carbon) in Windows. Unfortunately, the
latest version of PowerPlant that Altura supported in their downloads
was the Classic version, not the Carbon version. Presumably,
Metrowerks used a lot of #ifdef's or separate brnaches or something to
get around this problem; but it seems a moot point now.
As Metrowerks was one of the largest customers Altura had left, I doubt
that Mac2Win will have much further viability once CodeWarrior 10 is
released.

Do you have any documenting evidence of this assertation?

[j***@mac.com]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
Do you have any documenting evidence of this assertation?

What is an "assertation"? I suppose you mean "assertion"? Also, I am
not sure which "assertion" you were asking about. The existence of
Mac2Win itself is of course "documented" at their web site:
http://www.altura.ro/Mac2Win/mac2win_frame.htm . Metrowerks' use of it
wasn't really a secret, as they have openly said so themselves in many
places, including this newsgroup, as well as a MacTech article
http://www.mactech.com/articles/mactech/Vol.12/12.04/Apr96FactoryFloor/
. If it's my "assertion" that Metrowerks was one of Altura largest
customers, I admit that was pure speculation, as most cross-platform
apps have since moved away from Altura. (I am told that Photoshop once
used this technology, but don't quote me on that.)

Mac2Win is also the reason that Metrowerks placed such an expensive
price tag on PowerPlant for Windows. Because Altura charges royalties
on sales of Mac2Win ported apps, that had to be passed on to the
PowerPlant/Win customer, which of course was extremely unpopular.
(Besides being obscenely expensive, there are already many inexpensive
alternatives for cross-platform frameworks.)

A really cool test to tell if a Windows app was ported via Mac2Win is
the Secret About Box found in most ported applications: hit ALT-U-R-A
(spells "Altura") and you get the hidden Mac2Win About Box. That
worked with CodeWarrior for Windows for versions 5 & 6, but stopped I
think sometime around CodeWarrior 8, probably due to ALT-U, ALT-R or
ALT-A being co-opted for some other feature.

Hope that helps. Please let me know if you need further "documenting
evidence" of other "assertations".

Jonathan Hoyle

[b***@hotmail.com]

Post by j***@mac.com
ALT-A being co-opted for some other feature.
Hope that helps. Please let me know if you need further "documenting
evidence" of other "assertations".

In other words, you have no evidence that PowerPlant for Windows used
Altura, now CodeWarrior. It's all ancedotal. I doubt Metrowerks was simply
a Mac2Win reseller...

[j***@mac.com]

Post by b***@hotmail.com
In other words, you have no evidence that PowerPlant for Windows used

Altura, now CodeWarrior.

Huh? Didn't I just give such evidence? Maybe I'm misunderstanding
since that sentence does not completely make sense to me.

Post by b***@hotmail.com
It's all ancedotal.

If the word of a Metrowerks' lead engineer is considered anecdotal,
then yes, it is anecdotal.

Post by b***@hotmail.com
I doubt Metrowerks was simply a Mac2Win reseller...

Again, you seem to misunderstand the nature of this. Many
applications, including one I worked on for years, used Mac2Win as
their porting technology. Such companies do not "resell" Mac2Win per
se, however, they do have to pay royalties on the sales of their
product, usually a percentage of the revenue intake.

I'm a little surprised that this is getting so angry. I am doing
nothing more than passing on what Metrowerks engineers have told me in
the past. If things have changed in the past couple releases, fine.
But I'm not just making up this Mac2Win connection, and I was just
trying to pass along the information as I know it. I was not trying to
offend anyone.

Clearly MWRon knows more about this than I do, so I'll let him respond.

Jonathan Hoyle

[b***@hotmail.com]

Post by j***@mac.com
If the word of a Metrowerks' lead engineer is considered anecdotal,
then yes, it is anecdotal.

Indeed it is, as there's no documentation saying PP for windows used Altura,
and MWRon said PP for Windows wasn't using Altura.

PP for Windows is not necessarily the same implementation as early CW IDE
implementations. Remember when the windows hosted IDE suddenly started
working really nicely compared to before? :)

You know what happens when you assume...

Post by j***@mac.com
I'm a little surprised that this is getting so angry. I am doing
nothing more than passing on what Metrowerks engineers have told me in
the past. If things have changed in the past couple releases, fine.
But I'm not just making up this Mac2Win connection, and I was just
trying to pass along the information as I know it. I was not trying to
offend anyone.
Clearly MWRon knows more about this than I do, so I'll let him respond.

No one is getting angry here.

[j***@mac.com]

This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.

[Gregory Dow]

Post by j***@mac.com

Post by b***@hotmail.com
PP for Windows is not necessarily the same implementation as early
CW IDE implementations. Remember when the windows hosted IDE
suddenly started working really nicely compared to before? :)

Yes, that's a good point. Still, the Secret About Box thing seems like
a smoking gun to me. In the end though it's a moot point as Metrowerks
is killing the product off. :-(

I think there is still some confusion here, mostly based on terminology
and product names.

PowerPlant:
A C++ source code library for building Mac applications.

Mac2Win:
A porting library which implements a portion of the Mac Toolbox C API
on Windows, allowing Mac source code to be recompiled to run on Windows.

PowerPlant for Windows (PowerPlantXP):
An implementation of the PowerPlant C++ API on Windows, designed to
help port PowerPlant programs to Windows. This was developed by
Metrowerks without using Mac2Win.

CW IDE:
The CodeWarrior integrated development environment, an executable
program with both Mac and Windows versions. The first versions were
created using PowerPlant and ran only on Macintosh.
A Windows version was created (I don't recall exactly when), which
used Altura's Mac2Win porting library.
Later Windows versions used "PowerPlant for Windows". I don't know
the details, but there may have been some versions where both Mac2Win
and "PowerPlant for Windows" were used.


So, Metrowerks used Altura's Mac2Win to develop some early versions of
the CodeWarrior IDE for Windows.

However, a separate product, called "PowerPlant for Windows", was
developed independently by Metrowerks and used for later versions of the
CodeWarrior IDE for Windows.

-- Greg Dow

[j***@mac.com]

Thanks, Greg, that clears it up pretty well for me!

By the way, who was the lucky company that picked you up after you left
Metrowerks last year?

[Gregory Dow]

Post by j***@mac.com
Thanks, Greg, that clears it up pretty well for me!
By the way, who was the lucky company that picked you up after you left
Metrowerks last year?

I am presently working for Macromedia (soon to be Adobe).

And to make this message on topic, both Macromedia and Adobe have used
PowerPlant in some of their products.

-- Greg

[MW Ron]

Post by Alex Curylo

Post by Alex Curylo

Post by MW Ron
PowerPlantXP the cross platform version was discontinued

Well, in that case, how about releasing the source to it as an

unsupported

Post by Alex Curylo
download? Plenty of folks I'm sure would find that useful for

projects that

Post by Alex Curylo
aren't worth the investment for the commercial version, me for

starters!

This assertion is wrong. PowerPlant for Windows is not based on
Altura's technology. it is based on Metrowerks Lattitude and other
Metrowerks developed technology.

Metrowerks did use Altura's technology for our very early Windows hosted
tools, and some things carried over when we went to PPxpn I am fairly
sure that PPxp was developed in a black box without any knowledge of
Altura technology and was not backwards engineered.

Ron

[j***@mac.com]

Mac2Win was certainly used by Metrowerks at least as far as CodeWarrior
6 (a PowerPlant application), and that fact can be demonstrated by
bringing up the Mac2Win Secret About Box. Furthermore, Greg Dow made
the following statement in the aforementioned article:

"To port code to Windows, I recommend that people investigate Mac2Win
from Altura Software. The Mac2Win libraries emulate the Mac Toolbox on
Windows. Metrowerks is using these libraries to port portions of the
CodeWarrior environment to Windows."

The latest version of PowerPlant still distributed by Altura was the
last pre-Carbonized version, which would make sense why Metrowerks had
to do some of their own work on this as well lately. The engineers I
spoke to at WWDC were pretty open about their use of Mac2Win back then.
Now, I don't doubt that Lattitude was a major part of this porting
process as well, and perhaps in the last couple versions of CodeWarrior
and PowerPlant, most all of Altura was removed. But to suggest that no
part of Altura was used in the making of PowerPlant for Windows is just
too hard to swallow.

Unless of course Metrowerks had some independent and totally
coincidental reasons for duplicating Altura's Secret About Box.

Jonathan Hoyle

[MW Ron]

Post by j***@mac.com
Mac2Win was certainly used by Metrowerks at least as far as CodeWarrior
6 (a PowerPlant application), and that fact can be demonstrated by
bringing up the Mac2Win Secret About Box

Correct various components were not converted until they were
re-written.

Post by j***@mac.com
Furthermore, Greg Dow made

If I remember correctly (and I'm pretty confident I do) Greg Dow did not
work on PowerPlant for Windows.

Post by j***@mac.com
Unless of course Metrowerks had some independent and totally
coincidental reasons for duplicating Altura's Secret About Box.

You are still looking at a Metrowerks application and not PowerPlantXP
which is a porting library. Those that are into these things could
tell which components were converted using Altura and PowerPlant by how
the bitmaps looked differently on Windows.


Ron

[kiyookasan]

Even if PowerPlant 'classic' is discontinued, you'll always have the
source code, and given the clear and well-thought-out design of the
framework, it is easy to extend to include new idioms, including
Quartz, sheets, drawers, HIViews etc.

That's the approach I'm taking, at least for now.

Gen